Maybe a little bit of both.
Earlier this week, my company had a guest visitor over to chat with us about sexual assault and rape. His presentation was chock full of the usual victim-advocate-industry talking points, namely “90% of rapes go unreported”, “590,000 sexual assaults occur each year in the USA”, and “4% of rape accusations are false”. The message was that rape is a huge issue, that victims are all around us, that false accusations are rare events (but we should treat each accusation as if it was true, on the off chance that it was) and that we should all do our part to stamp out rape and sexual assault of the women in our lives. Noble goals all.
Yet I contend that the dual effort to support real victims and stamp out this crime is weakened by playing fast and loose with the facts. People don’t like being lied to, and the rape advocacy industry’s questionable credibility sloughs off on the victim-accusers they advocate for. For instance, we know that the “90%” statistic isn’t grounded in real facts. It is an upper bound (based on antiquated data) on an estimated number of unreported rapes based on some activist's gut feel. More recent and hopefully more reliable figures churned out by the rape advocacy groups themselves peg the number at a much lower 60%. In addition, the 590,000 sexual assault number is more than two times the 2007 data (the data itself is an estimate that I suspect is extrapolated--based on the "60%" underreporting rate), and I could nowhere find any data to support the 4% figure. What I did find in that domain were several references to Brownmiller’s long-since-discredited 2% figure as well as numerous citations that locate the actual rate of false rape accusations at around 10% [wiki, Slate article]. Eugene Kanin’s false rape accusation research that suggested a 40% false accusation rate was widely critiqued/debunked for reasons related to methodology and small sample size.
One common theme I noted while listening to the visitor presentation and in reading the rape victim advocacy literature is the presumption that the accuser is telling the truth, that a real rape, not just a difference of opinion or a blatant lie was told, and that therefore each accusation is true. Putting aside the fact that this intellectual sloppiness implies that those accused are automatically guilty by virtue of being accused by another who has motive to do so, this theme magically converts each accusation of rape or sexual assault into a rape/sexual assault that actually happened.
From there, it is a fast ride to arrive at fantastic facts, such as the “15 of 16 rapists walk free” canard highlighted in the image inset to the right.
Something else that disturbed me greatly about the rape-prevention workshop I was compelled to attend, and the rape advocacy literature as well, is the collective yawn both seem to offer when confronted with the very real problem false accusations and what happens to the men who are falsely accused. Pierce Harlan et al at False Rape Society have made a whole blog out of this phenomenon, but for some reason our society seems to think that a 10% false rate of accusations is somehow insignificant. Put into perspective, that means that out of 250,000 reports of sexual assault, 25,000 were false on their face. 25,000 legally unimpeachable men were thrown into the law-enforcement meat grinder, their reputations irrecoverably besmirched, their bank accounts drained. This stands in stark contrast with the fate of the accuser, who has a well-funded army of people just waiting to back her, to console her, to support her. That’s an awful lot of guys faced with fighting to prove their innocence against the entire politicized machinery of law enforcement, all alone with no one to support them other than family and friends.
This 10% number represents judicial terrorism inflicted on innocent men falsely accused of sexual assault/rape. Unfortunately, it is regarded as simply collateral damage, instead of a dagger poised at the heart of the integrity of the anti-sexual violence law enforcement process. Worse, this Napoleonic legal prejudice is a men’s problem, rather than an issue of feminine integrity. As an example, I again give you the workshop facilitator who, after noting that 4% of rape accusations were false, went on to put the burden on men to protect themselves from false allegations, saying (I am paraphrasing here) that “if a woman has had even one drop of alcohol cross her lips, guys, run, not walk, the other way”. I bet this sort of advice is repeated all over the country in similar forums. Message? Here’s one: “Men, if you value your freedom, don’t take her yes as a yes if she has had anything to drink.” And here’s another: “Women, you can get as freaky as you want, as sloshed as you want, as hentai as you want, but if you regret what you did the next morning, you have carte blanche to place responsibility for your actions on the man”.
After nearly an hour of embellishment and lies, it was this final message that very nearly made me stand up and speak out. But in the end, I wimped out. Instead of a public challenge, I settled for pulling the facilitator off to the side after his presentation was complete and challenging his facts. Why? I was in a room with more than 100 other people, nearly half of whom were women. I sensed employment-reducing effects if I spoke out publicly, the lone fellow to object, surrounded on all sides by women and men conditioned to think that women don’t lie about rape and that men are dirty dogs who’ll take it by force if they can. I saw no tangible benefit to me for opposing the party line, and very real consequences if I had done so.
Was I a coward? Maybe, depending on who you talk to. Prudent? I certainly think so. Part of warfare is to pick battles that you can win, and avoid or run from battles you can’t. Live to fight another day, on more favorable terrain.
Wednesday, November 4, 2009
Prudence or Cowardice?
Bugled by Elusive Wapiti at 6:34 AM
Labels: False Rape Accusations, Rape Sphere: Related Content

37 Comments:
Yes you were a coward, but so were all the other men in the room. It is possible to be bravely stupid and it would have been stupid to speak up in that case. No one there wanted to hear your information and they would have all resented your interruption. Even the men wanted to get it over with as quickly as possible and any discussions would have only drqagged it out longer.
So besides "awareness" and not offering your wife a drink before you molest her, what did they recommend a s away to prevent sexxual assaults or reduce their number?
The last time I had to sit through one of those, I recommended that all women should carry guns. That would cut rape down to near zero. But the feminist industry is closely aligned to the anti-gun industry so that was not a popular suggestion. And remember tat I was talking about an audience of uniformed military women, all of whome have had some degree of weapons training.
Also, recognize that the person giving that briefing is incapable of accepting any information that is contraty to the party line. It would not matter if you had a long line of witnesses and the director of the FBI crime statistics department there.
That cool-aid is some sweet tasting stuff.
But cheer up. So many Americans are getting so used to being lied to about EVERYTHING, that they find it difficult to trust anything. The widespread rejection of swine flu vaccination is just one indicater of that.
Just do your job and shut up.
Where's the equality here?
Men have all the responsibility and women have none?
Then defacto, women are not equal and should not be treated as such.
Our society is so messed up.
By the way, talking to local polic officers I know, they personally believe that the false rape accusation rate they see is around 50%+ based on their experience.
They won't voice that publicly. So the "cowardice" is rampant
I can completely understand as my former employer called us to a meeting to show us ‘violence in the workplace’ videos. Naturally men committed all depictions of said violence, with an anti-gun message thrown in for good measure as well. At one time we also had a sexual harassment meeting where we had to take a quiz at the end and take turns reading questions and answering them around the table like we were back in grade school. When it was my turn, I intentionally picked the most obviously wrong (and sexist) answer, but quickly covered myself with an uncomfortable laugh and picked the ‘right’ answer.
You should have asked him this...
"Hypothetically, if I have a BAC of 0.12 and my date has a BAC of 0.04, why isn't the presumption before the law that I can't consent or understand consent, but when the gender roles are reversed, it is presumed that she cannot consent."
That might have actually been a question that your male peers would have wanted to see him stammer through...
Secret video tape is your friend. Your only real defense against a false accusation is proving the event did not happen the way the accuer said. In he-said-she-said, He loses.
First, thanks for the hat tip to our site.
Second, if your job hangs in the balance, cowardice is subjective. You have to weigh the benefits of whether speaking up will provide long term benefits. I make it a point to just get up and start to walk out. When questioned on it, I bring up the blatant sexism and discrimination in blaming only men. I also make it a point to have a printout of a list of all the studies on violence by women, and false accusations of rape. It has kept me from any blowback, even though there are those who would love to throw me under the bus.
All the best,
E. Steven Berkimer
www.falserapesociety.blogspot.com
I wonder what does a workshop about rape have to do with your company making money? If nothing, then it is a waste of company time, resources, and produtivity (100+ coworkers also in attendance.
Global competition will continue to make leaps and bounds over American companies that waste their resources and handicap themselves with other wasteful programs, policies and laws that other countries (India, China, Brazil) do not force on their businesses (affirmative action, etc.)
Secret video tape is your friend.
I think it might be wise to ensure that every encounter is at least somewhat videotaped. This is a man's only means of defense should the woman cry foul. But worse, there is danger at all times around women as she could also cry abuse and the man would be thrown thru the same meat grinder. Maybe it would be best if we guys just wired our whole house for video so that we have something to back us up when that day comes.
Worst case you are protected, best case you have some awesome video! (o=
by our silence we give tacit approval to the matriarchy to expand its operations domestically and internationally
if you're afraid to lose your job, afraid to lose your family, friends, church associates, material possessions, assets etc, it limits your effectiveness in fighting the gynocracy, and the gynocracy knows that very well
this has been the unspoken and unexamined dilemma for conservative men the past three decades -- the beest is destroying me, cell by cell, but i depend on the beest for my goodies
"It's a funny thing being taken under the wing of a dragon . . . it's warmer than you think"
-- Gangs of New York
shows character telling this story on yourself -- you're expressing what millions of men have internalized but can't or won't say
it won't be easy to kill the beest, takes sacrifice and pain, same as it ever was
EW,
Why was your company having this presentation? I have never sat through this sort of presentation either in the medical field or academia (where I would have expected to be more likely to do so).
Also, the rate of false reports always confuses me. What counts as a false report? Recantations? No evidence found so no charges pressed? No conviction? Conviction overturned at a later date?
Learner,
It was an awareness presentation, by invitation. HR evidently wishes to avoid any "issues".
The definition of "false report" is a slippery one. Kanin defined it as one that was recanted or proven false, the others are simply "unsupported" allegations, substantiated, etc.
Others studies have a lot less stringent definition. They lump in the "unsubstantiated"--meaning insufficient evidence--with the blatant lies. So it's hard to differentiate.
The I don't know what standard the FBI stats used to arrive at the 10% figure.
But given that the odds of a conviction rate for any given rape accusation is around 10%, even with the full firepower of the state and an unlevel playing field, I'm inclined to believe that the real-rape-to-accusation ratio is small indeed.
"So besides "awareness" and not offering your wife a drink before you molest her, what did they recommend a s away to prevent sexxual assaults or reduce their number?"
That was pretty much about it, Hale. Other than pluck men's heart strings about how bad it is to be a rape victim.
Never ceases to amaze me how the male protective instinct is so blatantly manipulated, even in this day and age.
"Put into perspective, that means that out of 590,000 reports of sexual assault, 59,000 were false on their face. 59,000 legally unimpeachable men were thrown into the law-enforcement meat grinder, their reputations irrecoverably besmirched, their bank accounts drained."
In the interest of accuracy and perspective, that 590,000 number is not the number of reports, but rather the estimated number of occurences. Number of actual reports to law enforcement hover somewhere around the 200k range, and number of actual arrests in 2006 (according to FBI data) turned out to be 24,535 for forcible rape, and 87,252 for other sexual offenses. I don't know how much the false allegation rate drops along the stages of the process, with many getting weeded out at the reporting stage (around 50% arrest rate?), but 59,000 "legally unimpeachable men thrown into the law-enforcement meat grinder" seems a bit high.
There's no bravery in jumping in front of a bus.
Anon,
I fixed the number of "victimized people" in my post; a hair under 250,000 is the number reported in 2007 by the Census Bureau. Thanks for the sense of perspective.
250k is 2x the number of arrests for all sexual offenses. I suspect that the 60% under-reporting heuristic was applied to the actual number of arrests to arrive at this 250k number.
Yet I contend that one doesn't need to be arrested for a false allegation to have its effect. Moreover, the conviction rate for an allegation is around 15%. How many men falsely accused is too many relative to the actual incidence of the crime (as hinted at by the low conviction rate )? 25,000 men? 10,000 men? 5,000 men?
Yes indeed, choose your battles wisely. It would have been a complete waste of your time and energy to try and get through the heavy programming in the heads of those in that room. Might as well save your fight for the education and empowerment of men (and even women) that are sick of all this Feminist shit ~ so you can inform and pass the torch!
EW,
While a direct challenge would have been unwise, what about asking a question? For example, when the 2% false accusation canard was brought up, you could have asked where that came from. How was that 2% figure determined? What constituted a false accusation? Who did the study? I could go on, but you get my point.
In your situation as in battle, a direct, frontal assault is often unwise; for many reasons, it can be unwise. However, a sneaky end around, flanking maneuver, or a guerrilla attack will work wonders. Asking well phrased questions in lieu of making declarative, direct statements is just such a rhetorical maneuver. Challenging the instructor wouldn't have been wise, but a few well timed, well thought out questions could have made the point just as well.
MarkyMark
MM,
I'm thinking of channelling Chairman Mao on this one...when the enemy is superior, run and fight a guerilla war. Do so until parity, then begin to challenge openly.
Anyways, I'm in an email exchange with the facilitator and seeing if it was just an honest mistake involving imbibing too much fembot propoganda.
I am bias on this topic being as I was nearly raped (got the hell outta dodge - QUICK) by fellow co-workers at the age of 16 working at Dairy Queen. And then I wasn't as "lucky" and the deed happened when I was 18.
Men are stronger. Older men wiser and convincing. Oddly, I used to BELIEVE what people told me. Often putting myself in harms way.
Millions of years later I have learned to trust "my tummy's feelings" and distancing myself from people who give me that funny feeling :)
Yes, I was one of the badgeillions (new word) of woman who just sucked it up and carried on. Pretty well, I must add.
It's not just men who don't speak up.
Live, learn, carry upward and onward..
Hi-De-Ho!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WW--
It's not a new word. You just spelled it wrong.
It's "bajillions".
:-)
WW,
Well I hope there weren't any illusions about my neutrality on this issue either.
A roomie in college was hit up with a false allegation. Not pretty. The chick later recanted. Motive was providing an alibi for her extra-relational dalliances with a fellow that was not her boyfriend.
You gotta learn to sit at the front of the bus(Rosa Parks), and take what shit comes.
"Yet I contend that one doesn't need to be arrested for a false allegation to have its effect. Moreover, the conviction rate for an allegation is around 15%. How many men falsely accused is too many relative to the actual incidence of the crime (as hinted at by the low conviction rate )? 25,000 men? 10,000 men? 5,000 men?"
Some thoughts...
I don't think you can assume that a 15% conviction rate means that all of those who were not convicted were wrongly persecuted/prosecuted. A lot of complaints go nowhere because they are either obviously unfounded at the initial questioning stage, or they might be true but there's not enough evidence to press charges. Like most crimes, there are also likely to be as many false aquittals as there are false convictions. That's just a reality in a justice system where "beyond a reasonable doubt" is (usually) a criteria for conviction.
Wrongful convictions aren't always about false allegations either. Eyewitness error and zeal to get a conviction on the part of legal officials and politicians also play a role.
Whatever your over all number of arrests, they don't necessarily translate into "number of men", since a lot of those arrests are repeat offenders and guys who are already known to police. Even among the exonerated, about half had prior records for other crimes. I'm not saying this to minimize the experience of those men, since the similar statistics could be probably be found on women who report rape and sexual assault, whether truthfully or falsely (ie. women who involved in an anti-social lifestyle are more likely to actually be raped as well as make false allegations). I think a lot of these messed up men and women wind up in each other's orbits, making much work for law enforcement.
I agree that the effects of being falsely accused of a sex crime can certainly be felt, even if charges are never laid. Indeed, false allegations are a reality and a problem for many men from all kinds of backgrounds -- that needs to be recognized and remedied. However, I make the above points because of some who seem to claim that the number of women make deliberate false reports that are of consequence to those they accuse is greater than the number who are actually raped and sexually assaulted -- which is also unfair and untrue.
Thanks for the comment Anon.
I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss claims that deliberate false reports outnumber actual rapes/sexual assaults. I myself have posited that the evidence appears to suggest that a man is roughly twice as likely to be deliberately falsely accused than a woman is to be actually raped/sexually assaulted.
A deliberate false report is a very high standard to prove. As is a rape conviction. Thus, just as their are rapists who rape but aren't convicted are false reporters whose accusations are unfounded but not found to be deliberately false.
My sense of it is that the 15% number pretty well captures the cases of real rape (and is itself artificially inflated by counting consensual "statutory rape" as well). I say this because, for all the firepower the state brings to bear, and the unlevel playing fields applied between the accuser and the accused, if 15% is the best a DA can do, even with unsavory defendants, well it seems to me that there are an awful lot of dudes charged that have no business being so.
Part of the difficulty with false accusations is the data. Deliberate false accusations are a terribly politicized field of study. This makes analyzing the data a tough task. The fembots try to deny that they even exist, and claim that a woman never lies about such a thing. The MRAs on the other hand have a vested interest in making the case for as high a false accusation rate as possible. From the studies I've seen, I personally think that 10% is a bit on the low side (those studies that cite a 10% figure usually don't include accusations made but the accuser declines to press the case), that a 20-25% rate of false accusations is probably about right, and 40% (Kanin's number) is too high.
"I think a lot of these messed up men and women wind up in each other's orbits, making much work for law enforcement."
This is an interesting theory that makes intuitive sense.
Wonder Woman: "Millions of years later I have learned to trust "my tummy's feelings" and distancing myself from people who give me that funny feeling"
Your "tummy's feelings" are just the visceral reponse that you and other women have for men who are referred to as "creeps" because they are socially inept. Mostly you dont feel comfortable with them because you don't find them attractive and they make you feel uneasy, uncomfortable. However only a very small minority of those men would consider rape as an avenue to get sex.
The distinction between a man being attractive to a woman or not being attractive (as above) is upon making an advance to a woman, the attractive man gets a positive response, where the unattractive man is as likely to get accused for sexual harrasment.
The above is all contingent upon a woman's 'feelings',not upon some objective critera.
Though I understand why you consider your "tummy's feelings", I find it rather doubtful your feelings will be able to identify a potential rapist vis a vis a harmless guy who does not know how to build rapport with you.
Several have said "Yes, it's cowardice, be Rosa Parks, sit at the front of the bus, don't be silenced."
Others have said, "Choose your battles."
Bear in mind that by the time Rosa Parks sat at the front of the bus, several dozen foolhardy black men tried to sit at the fronts of several dozen busses, and were summarily removed.
Moral of the story: choose your battles, and try to have several dozen equally committed comrades who are operating on the same mission. One of you may succeed where the other several dozen fail.
If this were an actual revolution, I would say, "Where do you do the revolution the most good? Would the cause be better served by you getting fired in a ruckus, or would the cause be better served with you as a mole?" It's a serious question that would require serious military thinking. I don't mean to explore the details here, just to point out the way that real revolutions (or should I say coups d'etat?) operate.
WW wrote: "Millions of years later I have learned to trust "my tummy's feelings" and distancing myself from people who give me that funny feeling :)"
Distance is a nice tactic when it's possible. It's not always possible. There are no perfect solutions.
Monad: "Your "tummy's feelings" are just the visceral reponse that you and other women have for men who are referred to as "creeps" because they are socially inept."
That is not necessarily true. Experienced combatants often develop strong intuitions of when combat is a potential occurrence. WW may be imagining things, or she could have developed combat intuition. There's no scientific way to test which theory is true.
Anon 3:57,
I'm more inclined to think that more good would be accomplished through indirect resistance at this stage than direct.
There's that saying the nail that sticks out gets nailed down, and neither I nor most of the brotherhood have any interest in becoming a martyr.
Assaulting a schwerpunkt head on is a technique that will result in lots of casualties with little payoff.
A good analogy would be eschewing the D-Day beach landings in favor of the parachute drops a few miles behind the lines that morning. The enemy needs to detect, fix, track, and shoot to kill you; interfering with any of these stages makes our side more survivable and in the end, effective.
I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss claims that deliberate false reports outnumber actual rapes/sexual assaults. I myself have posited that the evidence appears to suggest that a man is roughly twice as likely to be deliberately falsely accused than a woman is to be actually raped/sexually assaulted.
My sense of it is that the 15% number pretty well captures the cases of real rape (and is itself artificially inflated by counting consensual "statutory rape" as well).
There were 33,190 felony convictions of rape and other sexual assault in 2004, which is about 1/4-1/3 the arrest rate on a crime that requires, as you say "a very high standard to prove", so how many false aquittals do you reckon? And add to that, those rapes and sexual assaults never reported. Even if we go with the conservative estimate of a 50% report rate, and base that on an even more conservative reckoning from the number of convictions, you end up with at the very least, 66,000 occurences.
If you set at a high ceiling with you 250k number of reports, and assume that 20-25% are false, that gives you a number no greater than about 50-60k reports, which may or may not identify an accused. And again, a certain number of those accused are for a number of offenses, or repeat offenses. So I don't see how you can posit that a man is roughly twice as likely to be deliberately falsely accused than a woman is to be actually raped/sexually assaulted.
(As for statutory rape, a lot of the offenders are juveniles themselves, and the crime stats we've been using so far don't include youth offenders. When the victim is under 13 or 14, and the offender is an adult, that really is sexual abuse, whether it's consentual or not.)
Anon 11:50 pm,
How difficult is rape to prove? I don't know, but such a subterranean conviction rate, given all the advantages and biases and prejudices built into the system, suggests to me the following not-all inclusive--or mutually exclusive--list of possibilities:
(1) Our society lets guilty men off easy for raping chicks, or rape is poo-pooed, or
something similar
(2) Prosecutors suck and/or police build crappy cases
(3) Defense attorneys are asymmetrically better than the prosecutors
(4) Guys are more innocent that we think they are
(5) Women are lying more than we think they are
My sense of it is that a rape accusation is hard to prove because the women themselves bring
poor cases. Rare are the true stranger-jumping-out-of-the-bushes cases of true forcible rape. Much more often are cases where the accuser and accused know each other, alcohol is involved, and usually both parties have been drinking. In other words, the low rape conviction numbers are a partial function of women trying to exculpate themselves from offensive sex that they later regret, as opposed to heroically reporting a sex offense.
Which does happen. Just not all the time, as we're encouraged to believe.
"...how many false aquittals do you reckon?"
How many false convictions, do you reckon?
What's worse? To be really raped (i.e. forced to have sex through the use of coercion, and not a difference of opinion) and see your rapist walk free? Or to be innocent and be jailed with real criminals for 20 years for a crime you didn't commit?
"Even if we go with the conservative estimate of a 50% report rate, and base that on an even more conservative reckoning from the number of convictions, you end up with at the very least, 66,000 occurences."
What you have is 66,000 instances of what a woman thinks is rape, which doesn't equate to a rape in the real world.
To untangle this pile of spaghetti, first one would need to separate out the numbers of consensual "statutory rape". My internet connection is slow right now, so I can't drill into the data. I suspect that it's not really tracked anyway, and is lumped instead into the gross rape numbers, so breaking out the shovel to go spelunking through the data would probably be a waste of time anyway.
For the sake of argument, given the lack of accessible data, I'll suppose that the consensual "rape" numbers amount to 5,000 annually. Again, I have no idea how accurate this number is--could be higher, could be lower. Anyways, this reduces the 2004 number of convictions to 28,000.
Part II
We then compare that to the number of arrests made, and then, consistent with the victim advocate's own data that trumpets "if a rape is reported, an arrest is made 50% of the time", double it to obtain the raw number of accusations. Thus, if memory serves, there were approximiately 121,000 arrests made in 2007. Rape rates have been dropping from 2004 to 2007, so I'll add 5% onto the 2007 number to yield 127,000 arrests in 2004. Doubling that number gives us 254,000 rape accusations in 2004 (again, playing fast and loose with the numbers for illustrative purposes).
Applying the rates of deliberately false accusations to this number, we get:
At 10% (the lower bound): 25,000 men falsely accused
At 20% (my postulated center of mass): 50,800 men falsely accused
At 40% (the extreme upper bound on the data): 101,600 men falsely accused
Comparing these numbers to 28,000, suddenly my 2:1 heuristic isn't looking so unreasonable.
But wait, there's more: Thus far we've been talking about *deliberately false* allegations--in other words, accusations in which the accuser recants or the police can prove her story to be a lie--not the other kinds of false allegations such as ones that turn out to be unfounded or simply not sufficiently supported by the evidence. How many more percent of men are subjected to accusations such as these?
I deliberately do not account for these false accusations because it is impossible to differentiate between those which are undiscovered deliberately false accusations (in which the woman stuck to her guns and got away with perjury) and which are simply differences in opinion regarding what happened the evening prior.
So you wonder how many men get away with rape scot free? Fair enough question. I answer that question by wondering how many women lodge a false rape allegation, either deliberately false, or false-because-she's-a-good-girl-and-wouldn't-have-a-one-night-stand, or an honestly false accusation.
I have no idea how big the two groups of people are--the populations of men who rape and got away with it, and the populations of women who lodge a false rape accusation and got away with it, but they do tend to cancel each other out, at least partially, if not totally.
"My sense of it is that a rape accusation is hard to prove because the women themselves bring
poor cases. Rare are the true stranger-jumping-out-of-the-bushes cases of true forcible rape. Much more often are cases where the accuser and accused know each other, alcohol is involved, and usually both parties have been drinking."
Sure, as I said in my last post, messed up men and women have a knack for finding each other. There's the "flaky" female who cries rape in response to regrettable but consentual sex. And those who get drunk and end up like sitting ducks for the creep looking for an opportunity, even if not consentual. Sure those women should have taken greater care in looking out for their safety, but if sex really is forced, that is rape, whether the women is drunk or sober, if the guy's acquitted or convicted. Likely, those situations end up in acquittal, because as you say, they don't make for good cases. Neither do the guys with dubious convictions who appear to have taken advantage where consent wasn't clear.
"What you have is 66,000 instances of what a woman thinks is rape, which doesn't equate to a rape in the real world."
Come now, unless it's a stranger jumping out of a bush committing forcible rape, it doesn't really count? There are all kinds of sexual assault situations included in those stats, not just stat rape. Do you have any idea how often women get touched sexually out of nowhere in public places by strangers? It occurred twice to me by the time I was out of my teens.
"...how many false aquittals do you reckon?"
How many false convictions, do you reckon?
"What's worse? To be really raped ...and see your rapist walk free? Or to be innocent and be jailed with real criminals for 20 years for a crime you didn't commit?"
First of all, rapists (especially those in "date rape" situations) rarely get anything close to 20 years. Secondly, that would depend a lot on the severity of the offense.
"To untangle this pile of spaghetti, first one would need to separate out the numbers of consensual "statutory rape"...For the sake of argument, given the lack of accessible data, I'll suppose that the consensual "rape" numbers amount to 5,000 annually...reduces the 2004 number of convictions to 28,000."
If you want to factor out statutory rape, the FBI "Uniform Crime Reporting Program" excludes stat rape and other sexual offenses from their count of "Forcible Rape" (but includes attempted rape, which makes up about 10% of their count) as gleaned from "cleared" report data, "number of offenses" at 94635.
Even if you remove 5000 from the 2004 number of convictions to account for stat rape (leaving 28,000), you haven't accounted for rapes and sexual assaults that are not reported, which are at the very least double that number -- more than half of all of these non-stat offenses are against minors, who are the least likely report, and the most likely to delay reporting when they do.
"Comparing these numbers to 28,000, suddenly my 2:1 heuristic isn't looking so unreasonable."
In fairness, if you try to account for the number of "accusations" through numbers of reports -- and a report isn't necessarily an "accusation", since a suspect is often not identified -- then you must account for the convictions that do not happen because no report was made.
"the other kinds of false allegations such as ones that turn out to be unfounded or simply not sufficiently supported by the evidence. How many more percent of men are subjected to accusations such as these?"
That's a good question, but it's not one of "feminine integrity", as you put it, since that's about the justice system. Understand, I am not trying to minimize the false allegations are made against men. I think it's an important issue that when you peel back the layers of it, there's much to be learned, such as stay away from mentally unstable substance abusing people and don't be one yourself. And yes, innocent people can get hurt even then they prudently aspire not to. Indeed, there have been many occasions where feminist agendas have obsured the issues. But I just don't think that the false rape situation for men is necessarily remedied by trying to make it out to be a bigger problem than the sexual violations that women endure, many of us before we're even adults.
"Come now, unless it's a stranger jumping out of a bush committing forcible rape, it doesn't really count? There are all kinds of sexual assault situations included in those stats, not just stat rape. Do you have any idea how often women get touched sexually out of nowhere in public places by strangers? It occurred twice to me by the time I was out of my teens."
I'm not claiming that the only kind of rape is the stranger-in-a-stocking-cap kind of rape. What I am saying is that sort of rape is rare, and that the picture is much murkier when the accuser and the accused know each other, or have been drinking, or are out looking for a hookup.
I don't know how often it is that women get touched sexually out of nowhere. Comparing anecdotes, I happened to me once, when I was 23, DDing for friends in a bar. I was ass-grabbed by a woman while my back was to the dance floor. Was it rape? Nope. Was it sexual assault? Technically, yes. Did I report? No. Not that big a deal to me then, and I didn't want to make a scene. Nowadays, since the sexual climate has worsened and I myself have become much more radicalized by the BS that my brothers go through, I wouldn't hesitate to jack a chick up for misbehavior like this. Even if the guys gave me crap for it or the cops thought I was wasting their time.
(On a side note, I note that the underreporting rate for men for rape and sexual assault--and for IPV, but that is a different story with a much different dynamic--is much higher than it is for women. We are thought to always like the attention, and something must be wrong with us if we do not).
Getting back on point, I wrote:
""What's worse? To be really raped ...and see your rapist walk free? Or to be innocent and be jailed with real criminals for 20 years for a crime you didn't commit?""
Then you responded:
"First of all, rapists (especially those in "date rape" situations) rarely get anything close to 20 years. Secondly, that would depend a lot on the severity of the offense."
My point is not the magnitude of the sentence. It is the fact that your freedom is taken away from you and you are forcibly bedded down with the real bad guys because the system is rigged to believe her over you. 20 years, 10, five. Does it make a difference when you are in the big house wearing an orange jumpsuit? Moreover, even if a fellow isn't convicted, his reputation is smashed, he's several thousand dollars poorer, and, depending the job he holds, may be sacked for no other reason than he was accused.
Also, according to wiki, the average sentence for rape is 12 years, with 5 years actually served.
"If you want to factor out statutory rape, the FBI "Uniform Crime Reporting Program" excludes stat rape and other sexual offenses from their count of "Forcible Rape" (but includes attempted rape, which makes up about 10% of their count) as gleaned from "cleared" report data, "number of offenses" at 94635."
I didn't know this. This would shift the rape to false accuation ratio. Thanks.
I wrote:
""...the other kinds of false allegations such as ones that turn out to be unfounded or simply not sufficiently supported by the evidence. How many more percent of men are subjected to accusations such as these?""
Then you wrote:
"
That's a good question, but it's not one of "feminine integrity", as you put it, since that's about the justice system."
You're mostly correct that it's not a matter of femnine integrity. These situations are indeed driven by the justice system making resource allocation decisions. However, I submit that an allegation lodged by a woman who wakes up feeling sore down below but doesn't quite recall what happened is most certainly a matter of integrity. In that she lacks integrity if she reports that as a rape when she can't even remember what happened.
To an innocent guy, whether or not an accusation is technically a false accusation (deliberate) or unfounded or unsupported makes no dif.
Part II
"...you must account for the convictions that do not happen because no report was made."
This is a good point. Underreporting is something that I haven't touched on sufficiently in my analysis.
In a previous comment, I estimated that there were approximately 250,000 rape/sexual assault allegations in 2004. A 50% underreporting rate seems to be around what the scholars are converging on these days. Which means that we can double this amount to 500,000 "events" where something possibly fishy happened in 2004.
If my understanding is correct, if an allegation is made, a conviction results in the USA 15% of the time. Again, I don't know what goes into that number, what sorts of crimes are lumped into that figure, but for the sake of argument, let's press with that. (15% is much higher than other Anglophone countries...the UK has a 9% conviction rate).
The hard part is in divining how many of these of these un-alleged accusations (does that make any sense?) were real rapes/sexual assaults. While my ouija board is broken, I think it is probably safe to assume that this second 250,000 contains proportionally less real rapes/sexual assaults than the previous 250,000...otherwise they would have been reported. In other words, the would-be accuser pre-screens against her report before it is made because it would be extraordinarily weak, she would be embarassed, didn't want to go through the hassle, etc. But I'll assume that the integrity of these non-reported rape/sexual assault events is the same as those that were reported--again a big assumption--and assume that if they were reported, they would also achieve a 15% conviction rate.
This would double the conviction numbers, thereby bringing the total number of convictions on par with the false accusation numbers. So this travesty of sloppy math and wet-finger-in-the-wind guesstimating upon guesstimations (such as the estimates of non-reports) appears to discredit my 2:1 claim--itself arrived at via guesstimation, albeit not quite as much--making it roughly 1:1 instead.
So: A one-to-one ratio is not quite as eye-catching as 2:1, but, that's still 50k deliberately falsely accused guys, and doesn't count the dudes accused of rape/sexual assault where the facts don't support the accusation.
Part III
So where does this leave us? I'm not sure, but I think you hinted at it in your last comment:
"stay away from mentally unstable substance abusing people and don't be one yourself."
No doubt that. Men and women both can do a lot to keep themselves out of the crosshairs. From my perspective, women should be cautious about the alcohol that they drink, because, to be blunt, they tend to turn into sluts when they drink. For their part, guys should exercise great care about being around mentally questionable women, ones who make everyone else but themselves responsible, or super-political ones that are just waiting to hose a guy for stepping over some line. Also, given the climate that trusts a woman's accusation more than a man's denial, a dude should be very wary about hooking up with a woman who has had any alcohol in her.
Your observation about how flaky chicks and shady dudes tend to find each other is apt. Kobe Bryant was in the situation he was in because he was having sex with random floozies waiting for him in hotel lobbies. Kate Faber was apparently banging anything that moved, and set her sights on a rich and masculine NBA star. Neither are paragons of virtue in my book, and a little virtue I think would serve both men and women well.
I also think that the air could be cleared a little bit by passing rape shield laws for those dudes accused of rape and sexual assault, so that the rape/sex assault accusation can't be as easily used as the nuclear smear option. This protects the good name of those who are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.
Moreover, for the sake of the integrity of the justice system, deliberately false accusers must be prosecuted and convicted for their crime of perjury/false witness. I suggest a sentence that mirrors the crime they accused the dude of.
So I ask you this question: given that the number of false accusations can be reasonably estimated as approximating that of actual, completed rapes/sexual assaults, even when non-reported incidents are taken into account, what will you do to help your brothers whose good names are destroyed and their freedom is taken away solely on the word of one of your sisters? For I submit to you that justice for women who are actually raped isn't helped when some women act to minimize/dismiss the problem of false accusations, or block measures to ensure the integrity of the justice system, protect the rights of the accused, and/or punish false accusers.
Oh, lastly, I just wanted to say thanks for the vigorous debate.
"From my perspective, women should be cautious about the alcohol that they drink, because, to be blunt, they tend to turn into sluts when they drink."
Some turn into sluts, and some turn into sitting ducks for creepolas. Lot's of overlap there, but not nec. one in the same.
"For their part, guys should exercise great care about being around mentally questionable women, ones who make everyone else but themselves responsible, or super-political ones that are just waiting to hose a guy for stepping over some line."
Taking the time to get to know someone before putting the moves on them would reduce the risk of being accused of date rape considerably.
"Also, given the climate that trusts a woman's accusation more than a man's denial, a dude should be very wary about hooking up with a woman who has had any alcohol in her."
From Tawana, to Duke, to Kobe, to Rachel Marsden (before her, a crazy canuck was just a skiier), the climate is not as trusting as it used to be.
"I also think that the air could be cleared a little bit by passing rape shield laws for those dudes accused of rape and sexual assault, so that the rape/sex assault accusation can't be as easily used as the nuclear smear option."
Absolutely. That's an excellent idea.
"Moreover, for the sake of the integrity of the justice system, deliberately false accusers must be prosecuted and convicted for their crime of perjury/false witness."
I'm glad to see from the FRS blog that this is happening more often. Btw, I do wish that blog would provide data on rape and sexual assault, acknowledging that it does happen, as well show more compassion to those it happens to. It would go a long way in giving the site more credibility to demonstrate some understanding of both sides of the story.
"given that the number of false accusations can be reasonably estimated as approximating that of actual, completed rapes/sexual assaults, even when non-reported incidents are taken into account, what will you do to help your brothers whose good names are destroyed and their freedom is taken away solely on the word of one of your sisters?"
I'm not sure that is really is a entirely a "given" at this point. We've been playing around with estimates and guesstimates, using US statistics that really don't capture the international picture -- or younger victims and offenders, where most of those offenses occur (and cause the most lasting damage). Young victims are especially likely to not report, as well as report falsely.
I used to work in with at-risk youth, so I am well aware of the problems with false report because we were constantly having to be vigilant about not putting ourselves in situations where that might happen. Sure enough, the youths who made false reports against staff were the ones who had a history of being sexually abused in the past, as if they were trying to find a scapegoat. So just because someone makes a false report of sexual abuse against person x, that doesn't mean they haven't been abused by anyone. Often, abuse has happened, but not by the one who has been accused -- it's easier to say "step dad/mom did it" than say "real dad/mom did it".
So I guess what I'm getting at is that sexual abuse and assault do happen, and false allegations are often a part of that dynamic. It's hard to talk about because no one wants to retraumatize an already messed up people with excessive scrutiny. But some scrutiny is definitely in order to protect the innocent. And that I will always virgorously support, and always have, be it youth or adult, male or female that is alleged as victim or perpetrator.
"Oh, lastly, I just wanted to say thanks for the vigorous debate."
Yo! Ditto.
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